Sunday, April 09, 2023

Are the rabbis trying to make us sick?

Here’s a link showing the amount of matzah, wine, and maror that one is required to eat at a seder, according to some traditional rabbinic opinions.  The amounts are roughly almost three sheets of machine-made matzah or about one and two-thirds sheets of hand-made matzah, wine equaling the approximate equivalent of one and a half cans of soda pop, and, for us masochistic Ashkenazim, about a shot-glass worth of ground horseradish.  And all of those are supposed to be eaten or drunk within a prescribed amount of time, usually only a few minutes, if I understand correctly.  This is how the rabbis show concern for our health?

Then there’s the matter of kitniyot (again, for us crazy Ashkenazim).  There’s some controversy regarding whether the South American grain quinoa is or is not kitniyot.  Those of us who have health problems that limit how much matzah we can eat and/or what kind of matzah we can eat and/or whether we can eat any kind of matzah at all, need alternatives, all the more so if we also have problems eating potatoes.  So why is it that the rabbis are so obsessed with eliminating one of the few alternatives to matzah that are permissible on Pesach?  Do the rabbis consider it irrelevant to ensure that people with dietary limitations have “starches” that we can eat on Pesach without risking our health?  😡

11 Comments:

Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Copied from Facebook:

Shirley Rabin Cohen
I once attended a Seder where the head of the household had a large laminated card that he used to measure his quantities. The card had illustrations for each item that had to be eaten, sized according to the minimum quantity of each. The rest of us weren’t forced to follow those guidelines, but head of the household wanted to make sure that he did.

Reply
16h

Shira Salamone
Shirley Rabin Cohen , eek!

Reply
9h

Shirley Rabin Cohen
Shira Salamone He was a Ba’al Teshuva at the time.

Reply
9h

Shira Salamone
Shirley Rabin Cohen , oh, maybe that explains it

Reply
5h

Shirley Rabin Cohen
Shira Salamone Yes. He was sort of a quirky guy. At the time, I was a member of an Orthodox synagogue because the Conservative synagogue in that neighborhood was kind of dying. There was a little group of us, young folks who had been raised in the Conservative movement, but were a little more observant than the typical Conservative congregant.  We met that guy when he came to our area for graduate school. He seems like a regular person until we saw that on Shabbat, he wore a long silk coat and a fur Shtreimel. He just really liked dressing up. I had invited him to Shabbat dinner for his first weekend in the community, and boy, was I surprised when he showed up at the door. Lol.

Reply
4h

Howard Passel
You're more than welcome to follow our minhagim! We usually don't have to deal with chumra.

Reply
13hEdited

Shira Salamone
Howard Passel , Sephardim are the smart ones.

Reply
9h

Howard Passel
Ready for Pesach!
May be an image of van [covered with foil :)]

Sun Apr 09, 09:22:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Michael Lewyn
Natan Slifkin has written extensively about this, explaining why the view you cite is a) wrong and b) has been repudiated by a variety of perfectly respectable halachic authorities https://www.jewishpress.com/.../the-halachic.../2018/03/30/

Sun Apr 09, 09:23:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

[See the Jewish Press: "The Halachic History of the Expanding Kezayis"]

Sun Apr 09, 09:25:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Facebook comments, continued:

Shira Salamone
Michael Lewyn , thanks! I'll check that link when I'm awake. 🙂

Reply
10h

Shira Salamone
Michael Lewyn , ah, so the rabbis of Ashkenaz, who'd never seen an olive, came up with this ridiculously large size for a so-called kezayis (olive-sized piece). That makes sense. That reminds me of another story that I've heard somewhere. It seems that the original meaning of "afikoman" was a kind of post-meal party--the dinner guests traveled from door to door, presumably drinking more and possibly engaging in activities not in keeping with a Jewish religious ritual (ahem). So the original statement of the rabbis of Eretz Yisrael was that one should *not* add an afikoman after the meal. But the rabbis of Babylonia, who didn't speak Greek or know enough about Greek culture, had no idea what an afikoman was, so they turned it into a completely new ritual. 😮

Sun Apr 09, 09:26:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Larry Lennhoff
This article is from around the time of the peak of Shiurim madness but it gives you the background.
https://www.koltorah.org/.../shiurim-how-much-matza-maror...

Shiurim - How Much Matza, Maror, and Wine Must We Consume? by Rabbi Chaim Jachter — Kol Torah
KOLTORAH.ORG

Sun Apr 09, 09:27:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Facebook comments, continued:

Shira Salamone
Larry Lennhoff , it's nice to know that some folks apply common sense to halachic questions

Reply
1h

Larry Lennhoff
Shira Salamone Three years ago when I first moved to Boston the Orthodox rabbi who gave a class I took brought in a large olive in a plastic bag. He took a hammer and smashed the olive flat. “A piece of matzah that size”, he said, “is a kezayit.”

Sun Apr 09, 09:29:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Larry Lennhoff
Shira Salamone https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/.../matzah-maror-chart...
Matzah/ Maror Chart for Rationalists
RATIONALISTJUDAISM.COM

Sun Apr 09, 09:32:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Larry Lennhoff
And here is a lecture by Rabbi Mordecai Willig of YU where he talks about the issue and describes moderate opinions. https://www.yutorah.org/.../the-shiurim-of-seder-night/
YUTorah Online - The Shiurim of Seder Night (Rabbi Mordechai I. Willig)
YUTORAH.ORG

Reply
8h

Shira Salamone
Larry Lennhoff , thanks for these additions to my Chol HaMoed reading list

Sun Apr 09, 09:32:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Ginger Ignatoff
Leah, aren't all those rulings from before 1900, at least initially? We approach food in the 21st century with much different expectations than people did centuries ago.

Reply
2m

Shira Salamone
Ginger Ignatoff , I certainly hope so!

Sun Apr 09, 09:34:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Copied from Facebook:
Shira Salamone
I forgot to mention one thing that my husband reminded me about: Wine used to be mixed with water, so four cups of wine were not necessarily all wine.

Sun Apr 09, 11:07:00 PM 2023  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

From Facebook:

Larry Lennhoff
Shira Salamone There are halachot today that specify how dilute you can make your wine and have it still count for hagafen. They may be stricter for Pesach, I don’t know. When I still tried to use wine I used 1/3 low alcohol wine and 2/3rds grape juice. 4 glasses of full strength wine and I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between Blessed be Moshe and Cursed be Pharaoh.

Shira Salamone
Larry Lennhoff , I'm happy to learn that it's still considered permissible to dilate wine and still have it count for hagafen. I switched to grape juice years ago--I once tried to drink four cups of wine at a seder and got so drunk that it's a wonder I was able to walk home. Instant cure--I've never done that since. 🙂

Mon Apr 10, 03:34:00 PM 2023  

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